Asperger's

["Nemesio Valle, III" <nevst3@imap.pitt.edu>]

Title: Asperger's

At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:

> Asperger's all by itself is as dubious and evasive an
> ailment as I've ever run across.

Is that right?  And I suppose you support this opinion with some sort of medical or scientific data.  I would love to read it.

As it turns out, the existence of Asperger's is supported by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is an official list made by the American Psychiatric Association.  This is not to say that the manual or the association has been or is free from controversy, but this is a start.

A cursory search of "PubMed," an accredited database for researching medical articles, reveals 336 hits on the search topic Asperger, the most recent written on 22 April.  Evidently, people who are obviously more informed than (I imagine) most of us on this list seem to believe it exist and are treating at such.  One article that might be of interest to this list is:

"Is asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism necessarily a disability?" by Baron-Cohen S. found in "Dev Psychopathol 2000 Summer;12(3):489-500."

The reason I bring this article up is because (as it seems from the abstract) it seems to demonstrate to those who don't already know that Asperger Syndrome is a very livable condition.  Indeed, it is likened unto "mild autism."  As Mr Maloney was quick to point out at the beginning of his paper, people with Asperger Syndrome often are leaders in their field, albeit a bit strange socially.  And, I don't doubt, like many conditions, there are ranges of severity.  However, in terms of diagnosis, based on the "composite list of diagnostic criteria," GG hits on the mark for Asperger's on almost every bullet point.

Incidentally, from the abstracts in PubMed, only one article in the first hundred fifty most recently published (through September of 1996) challenged any neuropsychological basis for Asperger Disorder, but this was when comparing to but only as compared to High Functioning Autism, not "normative" mental conditions [whatever that might mean!].  Others noted specific physical, neurological, and social tendencies amongst those who were diagnosed.  Indeed, I don't doubt that there are people not unlike Mr Elevator who doubt the existence of this disorder, but they are yet to publish anything which would help refute it in the past 5 years.  I kindly invite Mr Elevator would be kind enough to stop being insulted and provide the list with some evidence (a book, article, something), rather than opinion.

At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:

> And the question of stature and achievement compared to
> Gould's -- Maloney, Ostwald -- who will know these names in twenty
> years?

Anton Rubenstein (not Arthur) was the greatest pianist in his day, but I doubt there is a list dedicated to his memory.  Will the Gould name disappear in a hundred years?  WHO CARES?  (Incidentally, I doubt that the name Paul Erdos has any affect on 99% of the Western world.  Does this mean that we should disregard him or his work?  Of course not.)

Honestly, what does "stature" have to do with a blasted thing?  Whether or not Ostwald, Maloney, or Gould are household names in 5, 10, or 1000 years is absolutely irrelevant.  The inventors of 99% of the objects we use on a regular basis have fallen into oblivion, this does not affect the merit of their invention.  Similarly, I believe that Mr Maloney, who may become the world's least important person, has a legitimate point in his paper.  And, given that his paper is so compelling, I am not inclined to believe otherwise by someone who doesn't even believe in the disorder (for no tenable reason I can discern).  That is, until someone demonstrates that Asperger's does not exist (which I imagine is a highly unlikely scenario) or until someone shows that the symptoms of Asperger's do not correlate well with the biographical details we know of GG's life (which is also unlikely, since Maloney has meticulously demonstrated that an overwhelming number of the symptoms concord neatly with Gould's habits).  I invite anyone on the list to take Maloney on.

Mr Elevator seems to have at least one completely misconceived perspective on Asperger's which I would like to dispel:  You cannot have "a bit of intervention and detox" and be 'normative;' that is, if Gould existed in today's psychological world, he could not take a pill, be normal, and be less creative.  And, from the research I have done, it seems that most people with Asperger's wouldn't do this anyway, since the condition is not debilitating.

It seems to me that the genius-type is very rare and that, of what I know of them, they are largely eccentric (past and present).  I don't see an inherent problem with saying "Many genius-types appear to have had (or have) Asperger's syndrome [more mild] or disorder."

Doing so does not give us "final understanding" of the genius in question.  Certainly I didn't claim that I understand everything about Gould simply because I believe that the diagnosis is accurate.  That would like saying that I have final understanding of Copland because he was gay, Wilhelm Friedmann Bach because he was an alcoholic, Liszt because he went into the priesthood, Villa-lobos because he was Brazilian, etc. etc. etc..  A label of any sort carries with it a degree of accurate information, but also some stereotyping.  It is up to the careful student of a historical figure to objectively evaluate how well any classification fits.  In the case of Gould, there is (in my view) an overwhelming concordance between the diagnosis and what I have read in the biographies available to me.  Is there 100% concordance?  No.  Do I have GG figured out?  Of course not.  However, knowing this does offer explanation for a variety of his behaviors and offers insight into why he played as he played.  It is no final answer, just a piece of the puzzle.

For those who want a few basic resources to learn more about Asperger's should start with the following website.

http://www.familyvillage.wisc.edu/lib_aspe.htm

As for how this pertains to GG's possible (or in my opinion, probable) diagnosis

one will have to contact Mr Maloney themselves (I do not know of the existence of his study on the web).  He is articulate, meticulous and has spent a great deal of his free time studying GG's life and music.  I cannot speak for him, but I do not doubt that he would be willing to share his information with anyone who desires to explore the possibility.  I encourage those who are skeptical to engage in dialogue with him, because he is open to (constructive, not opinionated) criticism.

I do not know his direct address, but the the National Library of Canada lists the following email address for questions for the music division (of which Mr Maloney is the Director as of November of 2000): "mus@nlc-bnc.ca".

On a side note, there is a virtual tour of their GG Archive which I recommend to anyone who is not familiar with it.  It is at the following web address:

http://www.gould.nlc-bnc.ca/egould.htm

At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:

> We might also profit by devoting our lives to researching
> what songs the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles used when he hid
> himself among women, but we're as likely to discover these answers as
> we are to figure out what psychological problems dead people had. As
> to the ultimate value of this kind of research and the kinds of
> intellectual giants who pursue it -- I can't even complete this
> thought.

One song the Siren's sang was the following as Odysseus (the only mortal to have ever heard them and live) heard:

"Come this way, honored Odysseus, great glory of the Achaians (sic), and stay your ship, so that you can listen here to our singing; for no one else has ever sailed past this place in his black ship until he has listened to the honey-sweet voice that issues from our lips; then goes on, well pleased, knowing more than ever he did; for we know everything that the Argives and Trojans did and suffered in wide Troy through the gods' despite.  Over all the generous earth we know everything that happens."

When Achilles dressed as a girl, it is said that his name was "Pyrrha."

Your sarcastic disdain for scholarly pursuits in the humanities is at least as disheartening as your lack of faith in the recent pursuits of the social science of Psychology.  No, knowing these two facts will not cure cancer, nor will the people who translated the documents wherein this information is contained be immortalized in the minds of every man, woman and child.  It serves no ostensibly useful purpose, but then again it is upon these little facts that great books like the Odyssey or the Iliad are written.  If you start ignoring little facts like this, then you might as well erase all fictional/artistic literature, art, and music.  I resent that you find many of my hobbies without value.

At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:

> Asperger's Syndrome just doesn't rise to the clear
> diagnostic level of these diseases. Every Gould clue that leads some
> to an Asperger's diagnosis leads me to conclude simply that he was an
> unusually quirky, inner-directed, self-indulgent guy, in ways my
> experience long ago concluded is typical of people with big egos and
> the intellect and talent that justifies them. That these are not
> high-class terms worthy of health insurance reimbursement isn't my
> fault.

...

> I
> could be interested in some psychological insight about Gould, if I
> had the slightest confidence that it had the slightest bit of
> scientific objectivity and basis in fact.

This is the only challenge you offer to the American Psychiatric Association?  Your experience based on a decision you made long ago?  You bitterness (e.g., health insurance comment) towards it has clearly clouded any perspective you might have originally had.  I assume you don't believe that ADHD exists either.  (And I am not saying that I think it isn't over diagnosed, but it indubitably exists, so says MY experience, as well as trained and well-studied psychologists all around the world.)

And I daresay that you have offered absolutely no scientific fact which either a) demonstrates that GG did not have Asperger's, or b) that Asperger's doesn't exist (or more properly, demonstrate that any Asperger diagnosis can be explained in normative terms).  I want scientific objectivity and basis in fact myself, not your age-old conclusion.

GG was indeed "goofy."  But, I would say that not many of us know people quite that goofy, so goofy that they wear winter clothes in the summer, sleep in the day/work in the night, parade around in boats to scare away fish from fishermen, play Bach and Schoenberg to absolute perfection and hate most of Beethoven and Schumann, called people at 5 in the morning and sing an entire opera to the listener, suffered from severe hypochondria, have complete photographic memories, etc. etc. etc..  This is not just goofy.  This goes beyond goofy into another realm.  I don't know anyone with half the number of even slightly goofy things that GG did, and I know a fair number of interesting, intelligent and accomplished people.  I even know a handful of what I would certainly call super-geniuses.  None even come close.

And, just about every goofy thing that GG did makes sense in the context of a Asperger's diagnosis.  This is too coincidental for me.

At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:

> But this dumb Asperger's thread won't go away, and I long
> ago ran out of original ways to express my contempt for
> it.

Here is a suggestion for anyone who might be interested in preventing this thread from reappearing: present some conclusive evidence which makes an Asperger syndrome or disorder diagnosis problematic or inconclusive.  If you don't know enough (factual) information about Asperger's, read up on it (the web is helpful) and then contact Mr Maloney and read his (very long) paper (if he is willing to give it to you).  I don't doubt if you will find his argument at least somewhat (if not entirely) persuasive.  I am,

Respectfully yours,

Nemesio Valle, III

P.S.  Please do not quote my entire email in a response.  I know what I wrote.  Typically it is against list etiquette anyway, although I do not know Ms. Watts' specific policy.

--
Nemesio Valle, III
University of Pittsburgh
Duquesne University

Address:        5802 Callowhill Street
          Pittsburgh, PA 15206
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Email:              nevst3@pitt.edu

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