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FW: Gould's Bk 1 Fugue 20

To: "F_Minor" <f_minor@email.rutgers.edu>
Subject: FW: Gould's Bk 1 Fugue 20
From: "Dyfan Lewis, MD" <dyfan@lewis.se>
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 03:16:37 +0100
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-----Original Message-----
From: john grant [mailto:dohgrant@idirect.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 3:24 PM
To: Bach Recordings
Subject: Re: Gould's Bk 1 Fugue 20


Bach Recordings

Listening to it as I write. I've always been struck by this rendering! It
certainly stands out from the rest. But Tovey's commentary on the A minor
Fugue, Bk 1, seems to me apt here. "The tempo should not be too slow..."
Well, no problem here. On the other hand: "A lively reading with chopped-up
phrasing produces more harshness of harmony than too slow a reading, and
loses dignity without achieving humor." Gould had probably read Tovey by the
time he recorded the A minor. He seems to be saying "Well take that!" I
should say that I AM in fact a Gould fan. It's a heresy, but I love his
rendering of Bk 2 Fugue 23 (B major). No one takes it that fast, but it
works. It's the best interpretation of that fugue (on piano) available (for
my taste). I also think his Beeth piano conc (esp #1) are among the very
best--but that's a subject for a different list.
By the way, where did this notion that Gould is unequivocally fast come
from? He plays some p and f very slowly. Gulda and Feinburg can be just as
outrageously fast.

On humming: doesn't Jano do it too? (BTW Jano does a great job with Prel 8,
Bk 2.)

Different subject: are Demus and Martins available (all 48) on CD? If so,
does anyone know where?

-----Original Message-----
From: Bertram Cruikshank <welltemperedclavier@yahoo.com>
To: Bach Recordings <BachRecordings@listbot.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: Richter's WTC


>Bach Recordings
>
>Hi John.  By fugue number 20, book 1, I assume you are
>talking about the one in a-minor.  I am an "amateur"
>pianist myself, and I like to play that one using only
>the sostenuto pedal (middle pedal) and only in those
>rare situations where I can't sustain notes with my
>fingers, while reaching to play other notes.
>Fortunately, I have large fingers and I can span about
>10 white keys quite comfortably, so I very rarely, if
>ever, have to rely on the use of the damper pedal.  I
>prefer the sostenuto pedal to the damper pedal at the
>end of #20 where you mentioned, because the sostenuto
>pedal only sustains the notes in the bass, rather than
>creating the discord by sustaining all the moving
>notes above the bass.  With regard to your comments on
>the use of the pedal, I guess I'm more of a purist in
>that as you mentioned, the period keyboard instruments
>lacked the sustaining power of the modern piano, and
>weren't equipped with damper pedals.  In my humble
>opinion therefore, to use the pedal at all, is to
>contravene Bach's original musical intentions, and
>thus destroy the authenticity of his music.  The
>advice on playing Bach's music, given in the Royal
>Conservatory Examination Repertoire Books, is that
>eighth notes are to be played slightly detached.
>Moreover, since a lot of Bach's keyboard music
>consists of these "slightly detached" eighth notes and
>legato passages of sixteenth notes, it would seem to
>me, to defy logic to insert the pedal at all, since it
>creates a "too legato" effect for the eighth notes,
>and it "blurs" the already supposedly legato passages
>of sixteenth notes into that echoey cacophony I
>referred to in a previous posting today.  I think the
>pedal is better suited to the music of Chopin, and has
>no place in that of Bach.  Being from "Gould Country",
>what are your thoughts on his WTC Book I, fugue in
>a-minor?  I wish I could play it that quickly and with
>that degree of control!!  :)
>
>Bertram
>
>--- john grant <dohgrant@idirect.com> wrote:
>> Bach Recordings
>>
>> About Richter and the pedal.  Obviously the use?or
>> over-use--of the pedal
>> CAN obscures contrapuntal lines.  No quibble here.
>> (As we all know, the WTC
>> was written for keyboards that did not have the
>> sustaining power of the
>> modern piano; perhaps that?s the simplest
>> explanation.)  But the fact that
>> Bach?s keyboards had no such sustaining power hardly
>> entails in any strict,
>> logical sense the proposition that Bach must never
>> be played with pedal.
>> Where used sparingly it works for me, personally.
>> And how do you avoid its
>> use, say, at the end of Fugue 20, Bk1?
>>
>> Pedal or not, for anyone who hasn?t got Richter?s
>> WTC: you?re in for one of
>> the most powerful musical experiences of your life.
>>  Who on the piano has
>> equaled his performances of the following material
>> from Bk 1:
>>
>> Prels 1, 3, 4, 12, 13, 19, 23, 24?
>>
>> Fugues: 5, 8, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 22, 23,
>> 24?
>>
>> Rhetorical questions, of course; since there?s no
>> accounting for personal
>> taste.  But for anyone that?s hunting for a
>> WTC?played on the piano--that
>> will turn them on to Bach, Richter and Feinburg are
>> the way to go.   Then
>> explore the others.
>>
>> As for the twang or ring--it may just be the
>> tendency of some strings to
>> ring after they are struck.  Many Yamaha's do it.  I
>> don't mind it.  But I
>> wouldn't BUY a piano that had that problem.
>>
>> A digression: can anyone confirm that Tureck?s WTC
>> is being re-released?
>> It?s not currently available (commercially) on CD,
>> correct?
>>
>> J. Grant, Toronto  (Gould and Hewitt country)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bertram Cruikshank
>> <welltemperedclavier@yahoo.com>
>> To: Bach Recordings <BachRecordings@listbot.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 12:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: Richter's WTC
>>
>>
>> >Bach Recordings
>> >
>> >Hi Donald.
>> >
>> >I haven't yet heard Gulda's recording of the WTC.
>> >Call me masochistic, but I prefer Gould.  (And NOT
>> >just because I'm Canadian!!! :)  )  I find that
>> when
>> >an artist plays too slowly, the subject of the
>> fugue
>> >"breaks down".  That is, it sounds monotonous and
>> >laboured from a melodic point of view.  Moreover, I
>> >find that unless that same artist carefully
>> >accentuates the subject, it tends to get lost in
>> the
>> >remaining voices of the fugue, and so the fugue
>> >"breaks down" from the harmonic and contrapuntal
>> >points of view.  What do you think of Richter's use
>> of
>> >the pedal?  Also, is it just me, or did the piano
>> on
>> >which he recorded it have a certain "twang" to it?
>> As
>> >for Gulda, I would like to hear their
>> interpretation,
>> >but I'm doubtful I'd like it much, since you've
>> >forewarned me it was rather slow.
>> >
>> >Bertram
>> >
>> >--- Donald Satz <dsatz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Bach Recordings
>> >>
>> >> Bertram Cruikshank wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Just a word about the Richter recordings of the
>> >> WTC.  I dislike them
>> >> >IMMENSELY!!!  They were recorded in a room with
>> >> poor acoustics and
>> >> >as such, they sound terribly echoey.  Moreover,
>> he
>> >> seems to use the
>> >> >damper pedal a lot, producing the effect of
>> having
>> >> the notes of
>> >> >adjacent harmonies "melting together" into a
>> >> cacophony of blurry
>> >> >sound, rahter than actual music.  Moreover, he
>> >> plays several selections
>> >> >from the WTC so slow, that I am in agony just
>> >> listening
>> >> >to them.
>> >>
>> >> When I first acquired the Richter, I played it on
>> my
>> >> main audio system with
>> >> headphones on.  That was a mistake; as Bertram
>> said,
>> >> the acoustics are poor
>> >> and headphones just make matters worse.  But,
>> when
>> >> listening to Richter on a
>> >> less incisive audio system, I was easily able to
>> >> forget the sonic
>> >> limitations and concentrate on the performance.
>> And
>> >> here I must part ways
>> >> with Bertram.  I find Richter magnificent.  He's
>> one
>> >> of the very few
>> >> pianists who can turn tempo and dynamics upside
>> down
>> >> and come out with
>> >> commanding results that seems thoroughly
>> idiomatic
>> >> (as he does with
>> >> Schubert).
>> >>
>> >> Bertram, what do you think of Gulda's set on
>> >> Philips?  He also engages in
>> >> some very slow pacing.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Don Satz
>> >> dsatz@hotmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>>
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