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Asperger's
Title: Asperger's
At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:
Asperger's all by itself is as dubious and evasive an
ailment as I've ever run across.
Is that right? And I suppose you support this opinion with
some sort of medical or scientific data. I would love to read
it.
As it turns out, the existence of Asperger's is supported by the
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is an
official list made by the American Psychiatric Association.
This is not to say that the manual or the association has been or is
free from controversy, but this is a start.
A cursory search of "PubMed," an accredited database
for researching medical articles, reveals 336 hits on the search
topic Asperger, the most recent written on 22 April. Evidently,
people who are obviously more informed than (I imagine) most of us on
this list seem to believe it exist and are treating at such.
One article that might be of interest to this list is:
"Is asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism necessarily a
disability?" by Baron-Cohen S. found in "Dev Psychopathol
2000 Summer;12(3):489-500."
The reason I bring this article up is because (as it seems from
the abstract) it seems to demonstrate to those who don't already know
that Asperger Syndrome is a very livable condition. Indeed, it
is likened unto "mild autism." As Mr Maloney was
quick to point out at the beginning of his paper, people with
Asperger Syndrome often are leaders in their field, albeit a bit
strange socially. And, I don't doubt, like many conditions,
there are ranges of severity. However, in terms of diagnosis,
based on the "composite list of diagnostic criteria," GG
hits on the mark for Asperger's on almost every bullet point.
Incidentally, from the abstracts in PubMed, only one article in
the first hundred fifty most recently published (through September of
1996) challenged any neuropsychological basis for Asperger Disorder,
but this was when comparing to but only as compared to High
Functioning Autism, not "normative" mental conditions
[whatever that might mean!]. Others noted specific physical,
neurological, and social tendencies amongst those who were
diagnosed. Indeed, I don't doubt that there are people not
unlike Mr Elevator who doubt the existence of this disorder, but they
are yet to publish anything which would help refute it in the past 5
years. I kindly invite Mr Elevator would be kind enough to stop
being insulted and provide the list with some evidence (a book,
article, something), rather than opinion.
At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:
And the question of stature and achievement compared to
Gould's -- Maloney, Ostwald -- who will know these names in twenty
years?
Anton Rubenstein (not Arthur) was the greatest pianist in his
day, but I doubt there is a list dedicated to his memory. Will
the Gould name disappear in a hundred years? WHO CARES?
(Incidentally, I doubt that the name Paul Erdos has any affect on 99%
of the Western world. Does this mean that we should disregard
him or his work? Of course not.)
Honestly, what does "stature" have to do with a
blasted thing? Whether or not Ostwald, Maloney, or Gould are
household names in 5, 10, or 1000 years is absolutely
irrelevant. The inventors of 99% of the objects we use on a
regular basis have fallen into oblivion, this does not affect the
merit of their invention. Similarly, I believe that Mr Maloney,
who may become the world's least important person, has a legitimate
point in his paper. And, given that his paper is so compelling,
I am not inclined to believe otherwise by someone who doesn't even
believe in the disorder (for no tenable reason I can discern).
That is, until someone demonstrates that Asperger's does not exist
(which I imagine is a highly unlikely scenario) or until someone
shows that the symptoms of Asperger's do not correlate well with the
biographical details we know of GG's life (which is also unlikely,
since Maloney has meticulously demonstrated that an overwhelming
number of the symptoms concord neatly with Gould's habits). I
invite anyone on the list to take Maloney on.
Mr Elevator seems to have at least one completely misconceived
perspective on Asperger's which I would like to dispel: You
cannot have "a bit of intervention and detox" and be
'normative;' that is, if Gould existed in today's psychological
world, he could not take a pill, be normal, and be less
creative. And, from the research I have done, it seems that
most people with Asperger's wouldn't do this anyway, since the
condition is not debilitating.
It seems to me that the genius-type is very rare and that, of
what I know of them, they are largely eccentric (past and
present). I don't see an inherent problem with saying
"Many genius-types appear to have had (or have) Asperger's
syndrome [more mild] or disorder."
Doing so does not give us "final understanding" of the
genius in question. Certainly I didn't claim that I understand
everything about Gould simply because I believe that the diagnosis is
accurate. That would like saying that I have final
understanding of Copland because he was gay, Wilhelm Friedmann Bach
because he was an alcoholic, Liszt because he went into the
priesthood, Villa-lobos because he was Brazilian, etc. etc.
etc.. A label of any sort carries with it a degree of accurate
information, but also some stereotyping. It is up to the
careful student of a historical figure to objectively evaluate how
well any classification fits. In the case of Gould, there is
(in my view) an overwhelming concordance between the diagnosis and
what I have read in the biographies available to me. Is there
100% concordance? No. Do I have GG figured out? Of
course not. However, knowing this does offer explanation for a
variety of his behaviors and offers insight into why he played as he
played. It is no final answer, just a piece of the puzzle.
For those who want a few basic resources to learn more about
Asperger's should start with the following website.
http://www.familyvillage.wisc.edu/lib_aspe.htm
As for how this pertains to GG's possible (or in my opinion,
probable) diagnosis
one will have to contact Mr Maloney themselves (I do not know of
the existence of his study on the web). He is articulate,
meticulous and has spent a great deal of his free time studying GG's
life and music. I cannot speak for him, but I do not doubt that
he would be willing to share his information with anyone who desires
to explore the possibility. I encourage those who are skeptical
to engage in dialogue with him, because he is open to (constructive,
not opinionated) criticism.
I do not know his direct address, but the the National Library
of Canada lists the following email address for questions for the
music division (of which Mr Maloney is the Director as of November of
2000): "mus@nlc-bnc.ca".
On a side note, there is a virtual tour of their GG Archive
which I recommend to anyone who is not familiar with it. It is
at the following web address:
http://www.gould.nlc-bnc.ca/egould.htm
At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:
We might also profit by devoting our lives to researching
what songs the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles used when he hid
himself among women, but we're as likely to discover these answers as
we are to figure out what psychological problems dead people had. As
to the ultimate value of this kind of research and the kinds of
intellectual giants who pursue it -- I can't even complete this
thought.
One song the Siren's sang was the following as Odysseus (the
only mortal to have ever heard them and live) heard:
"Come this way, honored Odysseus, great glory of the
Achaians (sic), and stay your ship, so that you can listen here to
our singing; for no one else has ever sailed past this place in his
black ship until he has listened to the honey-sweet voice that issues
from our lips; then goes on, well pleased, knowing more than ever he
did; for we know everything that the Argives and Trojans did and
suffered in wide Troy through the gods' despite. Over all the
generous earth we know everything that happens."
When Achilles dressed as a girl, it is said that his name was
"Pyrrha."
Your sarcastic disdain for scholarly pursuits in the humanities
is at least as disheartening as your lack of faith in the recent
pursuits of the social science of Psychology. No, knowing these
two facts will not cure cancer, nor will the people who translated
the documents wherein this information is contained be immortalized
in the minds of every man, woman and child. It serves no
ostensibly useful purpose, but then again it is upon these little
facts that great books like the Odyssey or the Iliad are
written. If you start ignoring little facts like this, then you
might as well erase all fictional/artistic literature, art, and
music. I resent that you find many of my hobbies without
value.
At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:
Asperger's Syndrome just doesn't rise to the clear
diagnostic level of these diseases. Every Gould clue that leads some
to an Asperger's diagnosis leads me to conclude simply that he was an
unusually quirky, inner-directed, self-indulgent guy, in ways my
experience long ago concluded is typical of people with big egos and
the intellect and talent that justifies them. That these are not
high-class terms worthy of health insurance reimbursement isn't my
fault.
...
I
could be interested in some psychological insight about Gould, if I
had the slightest confidence that it had the slightest bit of
scientific objectivity and basis in fact.
This is the only challenge you offer to the American Psychiatric
Association? Your experience based on a decision you made long
ago? You bitterness (e.g., health insurance comment) towards it
has clearly clouded any perspective you might have originally
had. I assume you don't believe that ADHD exists either.
(And I am not saying that I think it isn't over diagnosed, but it
indubitably exists, so says MY experience, as well as trained and
well-studied psychologists all around the world.)
And I daresay that you have offered absolutely no scientific
fact which either a) demonstrates that GG did not have Asperger's, or
b) that Asperger's doesn't exist (or more properly, demonstrate that
any Asperger diagnosis can be explained in normative terms). I
want scientific objectivity and basis in fact myself, not your
age-old conclusion.
GG was indeed "goofy." But, I would say that not
many of us know people quite that goofy, so goofy that they wear
winter clothes in the summer, sleep in the day/work in the night,
parade around in boats to scare away fish from fishermen, play Bach
and Schoenberg to absolute perfection and hate most of Beethoven and
Schumann, called people at 5 in the morning and sing an entire opera
to the listener, suffered from severe hypochondria, have complete
photographic memories, etc. etc. etc.. This is not just
goofy. This goes beyond goofy into another realm. I don't
know anyone with half the number of even slightly goofy things that
GG did, and I know a fair number of interesting, intelligent and
accomplished people. I even know a handful of what I would
certainly call super-geniuses. None even come close.
And, just about every goofy thing that GG did makes sense in the
context of a Asperger's diagnosis. This is too coincidental for
me.
At 11:40 AM -0400 5/3/01, Elmer Elevator wrote:
But this dumb Asperger's thread won't go away, and I long
ago ran out of original ways to express my contempt for
it.
Here is a suggestion for anyone who might be interested in
preventing this thread from reappearing: present some conclusive
evidence which makes an Asperger syndrome or disorder diagnosis
problematic or inconclusive. If you don't know enough (factual)
information about Asperger's, read up on it (the web is helpful) and
then contact Mr Maloney and read his (very long) paper (if he is
willing to give it to you). I don't doubt if you will find his
argument at least somewhat (if not entirely) persuasive. I
am,
Respectfully yours,
Nemesio Valle, III
P.S. Please do not quote my entire email in a
response. I know what I wrote. Typically it is against
list etiquette anyway, although I do not know Ms. Watts' specific
policy.
--
Nemesio Valle, III
University of Pittsburgh
Duquesne University
Address: 5802
Callowhill Street
Pittsburgh, PA 15206
Phone:
412-365-0340
Email:
nevst3@pitt.edu
"The purpose of art is not the release of a momentary ejection
of adrenaline but is, rather, the gradual, lifelong construction of a
state of wonder and serenity."
Glenn Gould
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn
something from
him."
Galileo Galilei
"Specialization is for insects."
Lazarus Long
"Competitions are for horses, not artists."
Bela Bartok
"Understanding is both the first principle and the source of
good sound writing."
Horace